Conversation: Identifying Moral Facts

A twitter conversation recently based around this poll.
View on Twitter.

DF = Dark Futures (Me)
VVG= Vaelin van Gogh

DF: Anyone picking “Reason and evidence” is either grossly naive or doesn’t know what morals are.

VVG: If you can agree that unnecessary suffering of conscious creatures is immoral, then reason and evidence can guide your morals from there.

DF: Reason and evidence doesn’t let you identify the axioms of morality. That’s what I’m answering. Reason does let you refine it though.

VVG: That’s why I stated my premise.

DF: But we’re talking about identifying moral facts/axioms here. Evidence has no bearing on them, because evidence only tells us what is.

VVG: Not denying Hume’s is/ought problem completely, but if you discard superstition and accept my basic premise then many moral axioms follow.

DF: But there’s no reason to accept your premise.

VVG: Really? Not easy to construct any moral framework without it. All arguments must begin with fundamental unproven premises.

DF: All arguments must begin with fundamentals, true. What you proposed is not a fundamental.

VVG: Well it’s not Descartes, but it’s quite basic to any moral framework.

DF: Depends where you look, it certainly wasn’t the case for much of history. Of course, tribes/groups tended to define only themselves as human. So no, saying it’s ‘quite basic’ to any moral framework is not true.

VVG: Exactly. Even tribes with superstition-based morality (mostly) were guided by that premise relative to their understanding of reality.

DF: Are you intentionally misunderstanding me? They defined themselves as human, but it was obvious that others were human too, just not worthy.

VVG: No, just pointing out that even religious morality is based on avoiding unnecessary suffering of conscious creatures, as they understand it.

DF: I think you’re generalising those terms into meaninglessness.

VVG: No, how to best avoid unnecessary suffering depends on your understanding of the way reality works.

DF: Yes. It all depends on what unnecessary means. And even then. No. Also, like I said before: “We can’t even get secular academics to agree whether people are moral agents or not.”

Comments Worth Reading I: Degeneracy

I don’t necessarily agree with everything here, but it’s extremely thought provoking. I’ve added linebreaks to make it easier to read.


Now don’t pin anything on me, but I’ll take a stab at it, and I’m gonna try to use as clear an example as possible: How did we see and treat homosexuals a few generations back (or look at the Westboro Baptist church for a more recent example)
Well, look at how we treat peadophiles today, and you have your answer

and there is a problem
You see, (today) we accept homosexuality because it’s done between people that can give informed consent something we will NEVER accept in peadophelia since informed consent is not present
BUT (and here’s the trouble)
WHAT is homosexuality? -> Sexual attraction to the same sex
WHAT is Peadophelia? -> Sexual attraction to pre-adolescent children(/Minors)

Now, pay heed, we are not talking about child rapists here There is not so much a push for ‘legalization’ of peadophelia, but like homosexuality, some people are starting to wonder if it is a legitimate sexual preference (instead of the mental illness we also accused homosexuals of just a few generations ago)
For an ideology of SJWs hell-bent on ‘protecting the oppressed’ it’s no surprise the dialog about peadophiles starts there because let’s face it, they are the most persecuted group of people currently around

But as you stated, society is obsessed with the ‘evil’ that is peadophelia, like the church was with heretics, the Nazis with Jews and the Westboro Baptists with gays

bahBah Black sheepbahBah Black sheep

I disagree, You’re not looking five -100steps ahead of that.

  • You begin with pederasty (already done)
  • You downplay boy/male rape for decades (already done)-Men can’t be raped, they achieve erection, orgasm
  • You pretend boys can’t be raped, they love their sex with 35 year old hot teachers. (already done)
  • Produce studies which say children are sexualized much earlier than we expected (*Already done)
  • Make a huge scene that children can differentiate between their sex/gender within years of their birth (already done)
  • Celebrate 6 year old “Trans” (already done)
  • Tear up male and female relationships (already done)
  • Make men scared of sex with females, make rape anything, make women cold, vain, fat, and unappealing (already done)
  • Begin with really fucked up porn I can’t believe people watch already…Usually see Asian chic, bestiality, two girls one cup,
    Newsflash, I am THE ONLY PERSON I know that’s not looked into that dumb sick twisted nasty video.
  • Slowly leak pederasty/pedo porn in the inter-webs, to the main web, make it 16 and tight to begin with, young and along, then suddenly there is 8 year old in under a decade (already done)

Since men aren’t marrying, and still fail to realize how important women are to civilize them, they will continue to be mass manipulated, yes much like women, NOW the STATE AND CORP will now make their fetishes for them vis via men’s perverted need to watch porn daily…This here will make it possible. (Already Done)

Porn is not a freedom issue, much like democracy it’s a slavery issue. It does so much harm top the male mind, psyche, and autonomy, I’m really surprised how much porn is still consumed. Men will become impotent, and hyper sexualized with degenerate turn ons, this will turn the little relationships left to the gutter, women will not tolerate that sort of perversion more than a few decades. Leak outrageous pedo stories, that are made to make us all revolt in anguish and disgust, but continually leak them out over the years, in the attempt to make it appear that 10% of the pop are pedo’s instead of less than a percent-(already done)

Mass migrate 70 percent PLUS young migrant brown savage men into your countries, wherein FORTY PERCENT ADMIT WITH NO PROBLEM AT FUCKING ALL,,,THEY GANG RAPE, INCLUDING SIX YEAR OLDs. If you don’t think we are a pedo culture and pan sexualism within 2 decades, you’re not as smart as the one’s manipulating you. This is NOT an attack, this is a call to fucking wake up, stfu about you’re dumb ass white guilt, stop believing you’re country will be the same with darker people, start loving the god damn freedoms people died for by the millions so THEIR PEOPLE, NOT JUAN, NOT MUHAMMAD, could enjoy those damn freedoms, and money, and be sane, rational thinkers like the good god damn best people who lived on this earth were, whites from 1-2 centuries ago. Don’t act like the trash whites of today, act like it’s 1881 aka like your betters. Right is Right, Left is for losers that’ need the state.

They will start with boys, making sex with boys seem okay, making it appear as if boys can’t be raped, and all welcomes to sex is a boys top fantasy. Which we all know, they have already started with boys (which btw the Elite like to sexually rape boys more than girls anyway) Whilst they leak more and more and more sick ass pedo porn,-child porn is at epidemic proportions. See Twitter gate too, it’s out in the damn open now, young six year old girls being raped on fucking Twitter. Let’s just put it this way, I couldn’t make myself do it.
I watched a view videos about the debacle and them explaining the graphic nature of the damn kiddie porn throughout Twitter, these grown men were crying, I had no desire to look..I literally rather have a bat to my head. But it’s call desensitization, and it’s a pysop. Make x appear like a much bigger problem than it is, kind of like white crime vs. black crime, yea blacks commit 6-27x more crime, but lets act per capita retarded suddenly when we know race is being brought up. Then claim frat boys rape as much as black men…Um newsflash, not even fucking close.
Black men rape so much, they rape 9xs more than white men, and they rape white women far, far, far more than they do black women. Especially stranger rape. Somehow we’re so dumb we think probability in action matters ZERO with race, crime, gender etc. yet it matters on the flipping whole-we are being “judge as a group”, we are nasty collectivists commies, instaed of saying X is causing pederasty, or gang rape, we will say “society” and even stoop to the bowels of disgusting vile shit, and say the least likely to do x-does x most, or all of x, whatever, ….white fucking men… White men should grow a pair and knock a few bitches around.
Right now Americans think 20 percent of people are gay, it’s 3 percent, or that 37 percent of Americans are black…UMM it’s 12-13 percent. Let’s remember too, kiddie porn is welcomed, but say Muslims are terrible people, you’re the terrible person and will be banned.. OH and btw, I’m pretty sure 90 percent of Muslims are terrible people. . Girls are riskier to sell out, girls are far more protected, hence the establishment selling them out under the radar, and the immediate hush hush about Muslim grooming gangs, rape, molestation, attacks.
If you noticed a trend, it was girls, MOSTLY GIRLS that were quickly downplayed, not reported, rapists let go, supposedly afraid of being called “Racist”. Or whatever weak ass white people wanted to make an excuse for that day. Muslims sexual emergencies and being such a beta coward, being afraid of being labeled racist- as if racism is not just in-group preferences, aka fight or flight, good god our race has plummeted to the depths of hell. Aboriginals are better people than white people today.
[Note, this isn’t true, Australian Aboriginal rites of passage rituals often include ritual molestation.]
Essentially Muslim sexual emergencies have became more important that 11 year kids being fucking raped. If you’ don’t realize we are half way to the most degenerate culture the world has ever seen, then again you’re clueless to why this is happening. Like let’s say Muslim rapists getting no time in jail or four hours community service. Muslims rape men and boys as much as girls and women, we just never talk about this shit, because white people today suck donkey balls. You see, boys who’s been molested in any damn way, have about 80 percent chance at being a predator, while girls are at 40 percent ish. These problems the sociopaths in our gov and corp are laid out for us have a plethora of evil reasons behind them, irregardless of what are weak or close mind wishes to believe.

That’s Scientific Racism!

Human Bio-Diversity (HBD) is an extremely contentious topic. Anyone even close to the progressive end of the political spectrum will immediately accuse you of “scientific racism” (or perhaps scientific sexism), or just straight racism if you start to bring it up. This is of course, ridiculous, but I have a theory as to why they believe this.

The progressive vehemently believes in spite of all the evidence that everyone is absolutely equal at birth, they are blank slates and that any difference is the result of environmental factors like culture. This is absolutely not the case for a wide variety of factors including height, intelligence, propensity for violence, skin colour, eye colour, vulnerable locations on the body, etc. Thus under the mantra of the blank slate, inequality is the result of prejudice that pushes people into less than optimal positions, which is of course wrong because it is denying them the freedom of their totally unbound, unrestricted state of birth. This does of course give progressives an enormous amount of power, whenever there is any perceived inequality they can sound the horns of racism, misogyny, ableism, sexism, or any other kind of ‘ism’ prejudice. This has been extremely powerful over the past decades, but recently the heavy abuse has made it far less effective,

Their reaction against any implication of human biodiversity that is more than skin deep is, I believe, twofold. First, it would deprive them of their power over both individuals, corporations, and even their own governments. The second is a little more complicated. They believe in tabula rasa, the blank slate, and that the only acceptable position that logically follows is the Progressive Doctrine. It is then understandable how they believe that if human biodiversity is true, that the only possible position one could hold is of of the Ku-Klux Klan. They have been told this over and over of course.

But it is ridiculous. Acceptance of HBD does not entail KKK membership. Slavery advocacy does not logically follow from HBD. As HBD-chick states;

there is nothing — absolutely nothing — about hbd that precludes left-wingers from acknowledging its existence. you can … still be all for the proletarian revolution and redistribution of wealth or even just be a mainstream democrat…

…what you can’t be if you understand hbd is be a progressive

Acceptance of HBD does not make one a slavery advocate. It does not undo the 2000 years of moral advancement that Western Civilization has made. Non-progressive Christians ended the slave trade and slavery, and were freeing slaves (including manumission) since the days of the early church.

Don’t let others tell you what you believe.

A Rant on Immigration, Crime, and White Privilege.

I occasionally write rants and don’t post them, but now I have. This is partially a response to a post I saw somewhere else.

1st generation immigrants have less criminal tendencies than native-born citizens.

When were those stats gathered? When 1st gen immigrants were still mostly people from either Europe, or they were from when there wasn’t tonnes of welfare, so the people coming across were essentially the cream of the crop who had to integrate to survive? Let’s not forget that while the first generation have less criminal tendencies the same does not hold for subsequent generations.

The problem here isn’t immigration per se, it’s mass immigration and illegal/undocumented refugee immigration. You’ve got some African diplomat saying that the people going to Europe now are human trash. (If you know what’s going on there, you might be inclined to agree) You’ve got those existing immigrants, the 1st genners you talk about, scared because the people they escaped from are now following them! And those that try to fix it? They’re extremists!

Oh don’t forget that it’s a regular practice for men in Afghanistan and surrounding areas to rape boys because “they’re just boys.”
So many of them have massive psychological issues because they’re a part of a gigantic inter-generational cycle of soul-destroying abuse. Is it any wonder they do things like killing volunteers who help them.
Or this:

I’m a 3rd generation immigrant myself, but my grandparents adapted, they built a place here they earned enough money to make a good life by working hard and not spending a dime that they didn’t ABSOLUTELY NEED TO. They sent their kids to schools where they basically became natives. The people who are coming across are not like that now. Especially/mostly the Muslims. They have their special Islamic schools, their special Islamic food, and all this stuff that keeps them segregated. That’s not how you have a society. That’s how you generate ethnic conflict.

angry white men, whites have privilege, etc. White people have all the power, you’re an angry white man.

Though I have uncles you’d call “people of colour”, I have white skin, because lol genetics. (Other things are telltale though, I can remember getting comments when I was younger). Not that it fucking matters. If I dismissed a black man’s grievances because he was an “angry black man” I’d be socially crucified.
Lets talk about white male privilege though.
Point. Tim Hunt, nobel prize winner lost his job and most of his positions because HE MADE A JOKE and then black female journalist lied about it and said he insulted all women everywhere.
Point. Matt Taylor, who landed a probe on a comet wore a T-shirt that a female friend made him during his proudest moment, but some feminists didn’t like it so he reaped the politically correct whirlwind, resulting in a sobbed apology on national TV.
Then there’s the CEO of Mozilla, who happened to give some of his own private money to a cause he supported, a cause that was not endorsed by the left.  Years later this came to light and deemed ‘unforgivable’ so he resigned during the media blitzkrieg.

Those are just some high-profile examples. If the most respected and successful white men are easily destroyed because they made a joke that someone didn’t like, or they wore a shirt that someone didn’t like, or supported a cause that someone didn’t like, what chance to the rest of us have?

But even as those things are happening, there are academics saying that whiteness, white people, etc have all the privilege, that they are inherently racist need to be destroyed, eradicated, and wiped out. They say all white people have privilege, even the homeless white man freezing on the street.

”White people cannot exist as white and do anything to address racism, because whiteness in action is racism.”
Is it the duty of every good revolutionary to kill every newborn White baby?” – Jose Angel Gutierrez, a communist.
“We have got to eliminate the gringo, and what I mean by that is if the worst comes to the worst, we have got to kill him” – Jose Angel Gutierrez, Chicano activist and university professor.

We have got to eliminate the gringo, and what I mean by that is if the worst comes to the worst, we have got to kill him” -Jose Angel Gutierrez

I could go on. Malcom X, other people like that, current BLM, they all HATE white people (or even black people who are “too white”), and it is totally fine, it is not “lose your job” territory to support these people.
Think they might have had an effect on these people? Muslims aren’t the only people killing white people who help them. But they don’t just kill whites, they also dehumanise blacks that are too white.

But GOD FORBID you believe that people are better off with their own kind, and that everyone has the right to be ruled by their own people, including white people.

I’ve seen it said that the white men are just angry that the media doesn’t care about them anymore. Wrong. The media cares about white men. We  wish that they didn’t, because apathy would be preferable to the hate.
We’re being demonised again, and have started finally looking out for each other, because nobody else is looking out for us, except for a tiny minority of some other groups.

Why do white men have to look out for everyone else, except ourselves (because whites liking being white is racist), but nobody is expected to return the favour?
This “all whites are racist” crap has destroyed race relations in America.

It’s destroying a lot of other things too, because racism is now the original sin of the left that every single white person is guilty of, no matter what. Unlike Christianity, there’s not even a chance of redemption, other than suicide. That’s what’s happening, on a cultural and national scale.